Paul O'Donovan answers a question about where he is now compared to where he was in 2016 by calling on his version of the wisdom of the Greek philosopher Heraclitus. "A man can never fall into the same river twice." The man and the river have changed.
The Paul O'Donovan heading to Tokyo in a week is certainly not the one who came off the water in Rio. After he and his brother Gary took silver in the lightweight double they became instant celebrities - as much because of their funny patter and down-home pronouncements in West Cork accents as for their breakthrough in winning the first Olympic rowing medal for Ireland.
The O'Donovan brothers have split - only as a crew - and Paul now rows with Fintan McCarthy. Rows very successfully – they are the reigning world champions and hot tips for Tokyo gold.
Gary is now in a supporting role, heading to Tokyo ready to step in if Fintan or Paul has to drop out.
Paul admits that his public persona is now much more serious, perhaps befitting a man well on his way to becoming a doctor.
His own view is that he was always serious - the straight man to Gary's impish sense of humour.
And yet, if change is inevitable in the transition of a man from early twenties to a 27-year-old with responsibilities, Paul O'Donovan spends much of his time on this Team Ireland Zoom call talking about continuity.
The accretion of wisdom about the sport in his beloved Skibbereen Rowing Club is something he feels contributed to the growth of Irish rowing to the point where six Ireland boats will compete in Tokyo.
"I think it certainly [is] a factor, because there is all this knowledge we have created now in Skibbereen. It has been retained there and passed on and refined all the time. Always, as a young lad you wondered how in the hell could you get good enough to win the Olympics, what must you be doing, how much training do you do, how much do you eat and what else [must] you do with your life."
He traces the rise of Skibbereen Rowing Club, with Dominic Casey involved all the way from rowing himself to seeing his charges move up through the ranks from national championships all the way to winning World Championships and then competing at the Olympic Games.
"All the while there is this consistency in Dominic, who is able to see all they were doing. They were telling him what they thought was good and bad and he refined what he was doing in Skibbereen.
"For a while then it was just on an upward trajectory and being refined all along the way.
"You could say, ultimately, it ended with myself and Gary doing what we did in Brazil there five years ago. And then there were more athletes all around Ireland. There are plenty more on the team. They are not just from Skibbereen these days. There are a whole load of other clubs all around the country that are involved. I suppose they took a bit of belief from what myself and Gary did. They have seen us at the training centre day-in and day-out and they were able to replicate that."
He thinks some of the younger athletes may have been training with even more intensity. "You can really see the results of that."
"Once you know a good formula in your training programme, and a few other different bits, then you can really fast track the young lads along, because you don't have to make as many of the mistakes as we made or the guys that went before us made.
"So it is all about the creation and retention of knowledge. I think it is a big factor."
He spins clear of a question on whether his own focus has long been trained on gold in Tokyo.
"The rare thing about the Olympic Games is that they come about only every four years. I've had only one opportunity so far to go for them.
"I think as a kid, a youngster, when you set out your aspirations you're always thinking of Olympic gold medals and this kind of thing.
"Every season [as a competitor] when you're planning ahead and setting your goals, you are like 'the big race is this, and I'd like to win it', obviously. We [the Ireland lightweight double] have done that with all the World Championships and the Europeans as well. The same for the last Olympics and this Olympics. We've said that we want to win the thing.
"But day-to-day that's not really what's motivating you. You're not getting up every morning thinking: 'Olympic gold medal - I have to go and train hard, and if I don't I won't [win it]'. You'd lose your mind if you were thinking of that every day.
"It's mostly just a part of [the life]. What motivates us is that we enjoy training every day – well more often than not, certainly.
"If training is getting a little bit hard, you'd be like 'maybe it will be worth it in the end, if you win an Olympic gold medal'. If you're having a torrid day, maybe, you might look on that then. But I don't think I would too often, to be honest. You set it there in the back of your mind and get on with things."
Trophies are not that important to him, he asserts.
"It's always nice to win some medals and this type of thing, but I'm not rowing to get a big collection of medals. I'm rowing because I enjoy it.
"I was doing a bit of thinking earlier on in the year when I had a bit of time. From my experience of winning World Championships and Europeans and even the silver medal at the last Olympics, there is a ceiling on how happy you can be from winning medals. For me it's not that much above happiness you can get from ordinary, everyday experiences - or not that, but stuff that happens randomly and makes you happy."
Right now he is training with the lightweight crews - the Ireland women's lightweight double has also qualified for Tokyo - in Banyoles in Spain. The heat there is a help in preparing for the high temperatures and humidity of Tokyo.
"We've been supplementing some of that with a bit of work in the sauna as well after training. We get in there, get a bit of extra heat stress.
"[In Tokyo] it's supposed to be quite windy there at times. We're used to that from at home [in County Cork], and in the afternoons here in Banyoles the wind picks up quite a bit on the lake, so we can get some of that, too."
In his experience, heat can have a big affect on performance. He competed at the World Championships in Florida, in 2017.
"That year in Sarasota, I had never seen it before, so many rowers who were in semi-finals and were holding a qualifying position [for the final] coming into the last 10 strokes of the race and they'd just blow up and [be unable to] cross the line and end up missing out on the final.
"The same with regards to medal places in the final. People were up there with five strokes to go and [couldn't] finish it out – they passed out.
"It really is something that we've thought about a lot. Hopefully the work we do here will pay dividends."
The switch to competing with Fintan McCarthy in the lightweight double is well established. He says the statistics show that is a faster boat than the combination with Gary in 2016.
"[In] the lead up to this Games we seem to be more consistently in the first place in the races, so I think you could say that we do seem to be a faster combination than [the Ireland lightweight double was] in the last Olympics."
The emotional side of the change cannot be discounted, but the logic of top-class sport is that the highest-ranked boat will be chosen.
"Naturally Gary himself would be very disappointed not to be in the boat. He tried very hard, did a lot of training, basically gave it his best shot.
"He is my brother. You would be used to rowing with him over the years. But we've always said to each other that we just want to be in the fastest boat, whoever that is. If I'm not in it or he's not in it, then that's just the case."
"I think we kind of spoke enough beforehand. After Rio, everyone assumed that [because] they're brothers that's why they are in the boat together. We [said] that's not the case, we just happen to be the fastest two; if someone comes around and beats us, then they get in. That did happen and you just have to accept that and get on with it.
"Naturally, I do like to try to win races. If I can have a faster combination you're probably going to be a bit happier to be in that and have a better chance of winning those gold medals.
"There is a good mood in the camp, so that makes it all the more enjoyable, too."
Gary will go to Tokyo as a spare, and Paul cites the usefulness of having somebody who can slot straight into the boat if something like Covid forced a withdrawal. "He's a good man to have to step up to the mark."
Paul O'Donovan thinks it is unlikely that a lightweight double from outside Europe will upset the odds in Tokyo. Interestingly, he lists the main contenders as "ourselves, Norway, Italy, Germany. Belgium are up there and then I think there's a few others that are close".
The experience he gained in Rio is there, but he plays down any claim that it given him an advantage.
"I've only been to one [Olympics] but they say that they are all different in their own way.
"Going back to a pre-Socratic philosopher, Heraclitus, who said 'a man can never fall in the same river twice'. I suppose that is because he is a different man. The river is always moving and changing as well, so the river is different too.
"I think that is the dynamic here, a little, too.
"Obviously with [Rio] experience I'm a different person going into this Olympics."
In Tokyo, Covid could be a factor. But he thinks the racing will be similar to the big regattas they already attend.
"We have our boat over there [and] we've raced all these guys on numerous occasions in the past. At any rowing event we generally stay in our hotel rooms and rest up between races, then get the bus down to the course and do our business."
Racing schedules could be moved due to wind. He chuckles.
"We enjoyed that element back in Rio, because I suppose other people are a bit more regimented and get a bit more bothered by it. So, we were kind of happy to see that!
"We know to keep calm around those things."
For a moment, the Paul O'Donovan of the funny quips brushes by. And is gone.
Is it deliberate, I ask, this turn to seriousness, the tacking away from jokes and levity?
"No, I don't think it is deliberate, to be honest. Probably it's more my habitual personality, what I resort back to in uncomfortable situations, like talking to people!
"Gary would be a bit more extroverted - there would be a bit more devilment in him than me. I bounce a bit off that when we are together. I suppose it's kind of entertaining for some people."
Now, he feels like "the old man on the team" he says. "So I have to be even more serious!"
After Tokyo, he hopes to compete at the Irish Championships in August. He will return to his medical studies, and had hoped to be able to compete the World Championships in China in October - which has now been cancelled - with the intention of racing the lightweight double. That boat is also likely to be the one he sees taking him all the way to Paris 2024.
And so he heads back to the routine of the training camp. Last Monday, he flew to Japan, hopefully with gold on the horizon.
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