Ursula Grobler has already qualified for the USA LW2x, with Abby Broughton, but is racing at trials in the both the 1x and 4x. If she were to win all the trials, at Worlds should she attempt:
Nobody makes a big deal of doubling when the women's pair also rows in the eight. That is an example of: 1) Sending the fastest athletes, not the most athletes; 2) Denying two more athletes the chance to "go to worlds." The goal here should not be just to make the team, or to send more athletes to worlds. The goal is to send the best athletes--the ones with the best chance to win the event. That is what "Team Carlos" is trying to do, the same way "Team Terhaar" did last year with the pair and eight. The difference is that the light women have to qualify all of their events, while the heavy women are selected for the eight and only have to qualify in the pair. With the trials system for the light women, the fastest crews will go, which should be the goal for any team sent to the world championships.
They should have done this poll without comments. There's too much nastiness & negativity, which doesn't reflect well on this community or benefit anyone.
Disagreeing with someone or calling someone out on being arrogant, is hardly nasty I would say. Being disrespectful to proven world class athletes is never a good idea imho. You have but to look to history to see the results of overextending one's resources. Mtngrl your comments thus far have reflected neither an accurate perspective of the rowing community, nor a good understanding of the amount of work elite and pre-elite rowers put into their training.
As heated as a topic as this is, let's take a step back. This poll has only managed to get 1,300 votes at this point. Just to show how small the interest is in lightweight women's rowing, the poll for the favorite boathouse dog (http://www.row2k.com/polls/poll_archive.cfm?poll=923) gathered just under 15,000 votes. The biggest impact in drawing attention to ltw rowing in the US would be to win the Olympic gold in London. Plus that would be the only medal that can improve funding from the USOC.
Bottom Line: this is terrible for the development of lightweight women's rowing, which already struggles not only in the US but worldwide. If every rower that could win trials in every event they entered did, we would be sending a much smaller group of athletes to Worlds and would have a much shallower pool to draw from when it comes time to select Olympic boats. If you really have that much to prove to yourself, find some other way to accomplish it without detracting from USRowing and the athletes around the country who train just as hard as you do. Oh, and it's a "poll" not a "pole"
Lightweight Women's rowing is already the smallest sub-section of elite rowing, with only 7 spots available. To cheat 3 oarswomen out of a chance to compete at the elite level to better insure that he (Carlos) will remain Ursula's coach if she qualifies for 2012 is premature and quite frankly idiotic. Just because you can triple up at US trials and win every event does not mean in any way shape or form that you can triple up at the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS and even think of winning.
Besides the obvious (thus far unwarranted) arrogance it takes to this project, if she DOES manage to pull off wins in all events and attempt to race all of them, USRowing, Carlos, Ursula, and all her teammates better pray she stays healthy. Gets a GI bug on race day, breaks a rib, etc and you guys are screwed. As a former ltwt rower and current physician, I think this is beyond stupid.
Okay...so I keep going back to the simple logistics of trying to do this. In my years racing at the Worlds, I don't remember if the schedule changed one year to the next...but using last year's world championship schedule as an example....Ursula would weigh in and race once each day for the first four days (in heats and reps for the 1x and 2x), then actually have a day off - so that really isn't a big deal assuming she isn't struggling to make weight. But then comes reality...on the 6th day, she would have both semis, or C finals plus weigh ins for the 1x and 2x on the same day... Now assuming she has made the semis in both events (lets stay positive here) she would have only four (at most) races between the start time of the two races. I am not asure how that would ever happen, especially with teh weigh in rules (weigh in between 2 and 1 hour before your race - by my calculation she would probably be warming up for her first race when she needed to weigh in for the second race). If she were to survive that and make it through to the finals in those events....then...she would be faced with three finals (and three weigh ins) all on the final day of racing. Carlos and Ursula - seriously...who are you kidding, you will have to scratch an event, or worse her performance in all of the events will suffer (if she can even logistically somehow do this). There is no way, short of getting FISA to change the race schedule for an unproven liweight, that you can do this. Finally - it is nice to think you are following FISA rules for trials, but unless you are going to weigh in and race in all three events, in this order LWT 1x, 30 minutes off, LWT 4x, and then in 45 minutes race the LWT 2x, and meet the time standard in all of them, then you are not doing what she may face at the Worlds. That is what the schedule would have been last year if you were trying to do it...so do that, and then I will shut up. Otherwise this is foolish. When other people have doubled up... more often than not....their events were on different days (in the good old days, there were two groups and the A finals for one group were on one day, the A finals of the second group on another dauy - now the large majority of the A finals are on the same day). Carlos/Ursula - how about just trying to get the US a gold medal in the 2x (that is hard enough) and set yourself up for London...
just for information, this year's world championship schedule has been changed so that there are three days of A Finals. The only day the scheduling would potentially get tricky would be on Friday, going from the LW2x A Final to the LW1x Semi with about 2 hours in between. Link for the time table here: http://www.wrch2010.com/event/10wrch0.pdf
Agreeing to a poll like this before Trials have even started is in very poor taste and is incredibly disrespectful for all the other athletes who will be participating. Race your trials first, THEN poll, if you must.
I'm surprised at Row2k (shame on you guys) for disrespecting the Trials athletes, and I am *embarrassed* that anyone who claims to be a Husky would behave this way. This is just not how it's done at Washington, no matter how fast you are.
Megan, you were so right. Carlos, would not you prefer to get noticed by coaching your teams to a really big win first, instead of making questionable publicity moves? Can you imagine Mike Spraklen or Jurgen Grubler starting a nonesense poll like this one? It looks especially foolish, after the lost 1x trial. All it takes now is to have another "Julie Nichols" for the 2012 trials, and you can kiss good bye your olympic ambitions in the only light sculling event.
Big fan here, too, and EMFBO! Agree with the Husky comment. This process and polling seems way out of line with UW/G.Pocock ethos which has never been about self-pride or me-first. Groups will excel with a skilled and cocky leader until the first obstacle. Groups will perform for a skilled and humble leader until the goal is reached together.
Megan, first off, I'm a huge fan. Second, I totally agree. Third, if I imagined that I lived in a world that had coaches base their decisions off of row 2k poll results then I would have to defend Carlos (this is hard to do, trust me), because the duration of the poll and these responses are longer than the time they would have to commit after winning the trial races. So they would be useless if they were actually a factor in the decision making process had they been posted after the racing. Fourth, will you leave the twin and run away with me? XOXO!!!
I'm sure no disrespect was intended. I think these athletes should not waste emotional energy on feeling "disrespected". They should get fired up, go out and race hard against these Bellingham crews and have their best race ever!
I'm sorry you see it this way. I don't think is disrespectful to ask and talk. Polls are there to make people talk and give an opinion. Row2k is helping us. Disrespectful is not fairplay and not doing your best when you go down the course. The girls will race and do their best. I'm sorry you feel this way. Huskies or americans citizens we are all working to improve rowing and not seating around complaining all the time. Let'a have the course talk Megan. Good luck to you in New Zealand.
Greetings everyone. We Highly appreciate all your feedback and votes. It is nice to see open talk and different ideas. I have to say that today it is a really sad day for many people. Our good friend Cas Rekers, inventor of Rowperfect died this morning in the Netherlands while rowing on the water. The girls are going to race this week for him to honour his support and help. Also we have decided with US rowing to weight in before each final following FISA rules. We are all about fairplay and doing things right. Regards, Carlos Dinares
The answer depends on how much you value a world championship medal. If you really want to win a gold medal in the LW2x this year, and won't be satisfied with anything less, then doubling, and especially tripling, is a bad idea. But if you consider this worlds one step along the way to the 2012 Olympics and can live with an off-color medal, or no medal at all in the LW2x from this world championships, then by all means go for it. There is precedent for this triple, as its basically just (just!) the LW2x/LW1x double plus an extra race in the LW4x at the end of the week. Kris Karlson pulled the 2x/1x double back in 1989 (with same-day finals if I recall correctly) and I'm quite sure she could have helped a quad get down the course the next morning. Personally, I'd stick with the only event that really counts and make my statement with the margin of victory . . . win big in the LW2x and don't give any of your potential London competition the slightest reason to believe that they can beat you.
Ursula is still a relative racing novice, in spite of her talent. So the more races she can get at this point, the better. Racing is a big hole in the US program. She will benefit a lot from racing her single against good competition.
The other aspect is that it's always best to train with a positive, motivated group. By racing the quad, you give a reward to the scullers who are there in the group, and a larger training/racing pool. I believe the tripling will hurt performance this year in the 2x, but there is still ample opportunity for 2X next two years.
How many times have we seen US crews gold medal in the worlds and fall back at Olys? Olys is the money.
If 2X medals, quad medals, and Ursula makes 1X final, that would be a wonderful result.
anything better is gravy.
Make sure she gets a good month away from rowing post NZ.
I think the poll idea is strange, but the Sammamish camp has to raise money. THAT I understand.
Good luck to you, I admire your effort and discipline Sul
The only people Carlos should be asking are the rest of his rowers, who have enough confidence in him to train out of Lake Samish in Bellingham Wa, which is pretty far removed from the US Rowing scene. If his rowers think they have the best chance of winning with Ursula racing three times and still racing with them, then that should be all the validation he needs. If Ursula is the fastest single, she gets it no questions asked. Really, US Rowing should have no influence in this decision, as they have done very little to have made this a possibility. On the thought that "Carlos is expendable". That is really the most ignorant comment on here. He produced a World Champion level competitor in only a few years of rowing (from being a complete novice). I suppose that is just a coincidence. Or you think coaching has nothing to do with producing great rowers. While this is completely untrue, it is the only reasoning that could produce such an ignorant comment.
It is the truth. Carlos was blessed with a gifted athlete. He has the basic knowledge of a US Rowing level I maybe level II certified coach and hardly any knowledge of international racing. Have you looked at the Worlds schedule? How do you see the logistics of it playing out? Tell me you are not ignorant and have looked at the race and weigh in schedule?
Any coach would have thought of the schedule then the well being (health) of his athletes first.
He needs guidance. It is too bad he asked for it here for all his peers to see. Ursula and the rest of those young girls need better guidance before someone gets hurt.
I dont know if you know this, but Carlos organized the junior world championships in Banyoles, so I feel he has a small amount of experience with the logistics of a major regatta. And he is not "Asking for guidance". He is providing transparency (albeit a very small amount) that US Rowing traditionally has none of. Have you rowed for Carlos in order to discount his coaching as much as you do?
We are getting away from the issue, the athlete. The logistics make it dangerous for the lightweight athlete in question. Her health is being put at risk in this quest.
One medal in the double and one in the quad would be enough.
Fair enough. I have never rowed lightweight, so I have no idea of the toll that takes on the body. I must admit that Ursula does not look like she is naturally at weight either.
Its a bit like climbing Everest. 4 months before it all looks possible and easy and its a great plan, two months to go and its still exciting but the nerves start to tingle. At base camp suddenly Trippling up looks a big climb and come the Worlds which is a snow storm on the North Col and people are dying you wish you had kept it simple and just climbed Kilimanjaro.
I do wonder if all of the Carlos crew want to be at trials and just maybe wish that they were just focused on one event and ready to fight the best LW2X in the world at a time when ALL the opposition are peaking and at the top of their game?
The big problem here is that including the coach they are Olympic Class World Champ novices. US Rowing really needs to influence this situation.
This reeks of an inexperienced coach and inexperienced rower. It's a "fun" thing to think about but the reality is that it makes no sense particularly for a lightweight that has to weigh in over and over.
In the history of US lightweight rowing, three LW2X have won the world championship: CB Sands and Chris Ernst in 1986, CB Sands and Kristine Karlson in 1989 and Christine Collins and Sarah Garner in 1998. Only one lightweight woman has successfully doubled up in the 1X and 2X at Worlds and won gold in both races and that is Kristine Karlson who is a current USRowing national team doctor. Ursula and Carlos should talk with Kris for her thoughts both as a competitor and physician about the feasibility of this. Just a thought....
One wonders why Tom Tehar wants nothing to do with women’s lightweight women's rowing. Ursula has no experience at racing at a World Championships. A World Cup is not the World Championships. I am pretty sure Carlos cannot tailor a schedule to account for racing and making weight for three events at a World Championships. Carlos will and should have to succumb at weeks end and decline the single if she wins. Carlos is expendable.
I don't want to split hairs, but this is an opinion poll not the SAT. This system does not overtly yield a right answer, results need to be analyzed as "DMAN96" has attempted to do by using a converse method of evaluation. But in my eyes this poll alone illustrates the foolhardiness of such an undertaking. Submitting the decision to be influenced by a public opinion poll only shows a certain lack of confidence in one's convictions. As to the poll itself, the undertaking is only worthwhile if and only if Ursula takes it on and actually succeeds. Unfortunately for her, if she doesn't succeed, all of us (the inexperienced, non-elite, slow rowers) will be there to say "i told you so"
A point that was made earlier is that it would be better to bring a larger LW squad to NZ to give more girls racing experience. However, unlike middle school sports, participation is not everything. Realistically, with the speed that Ursula and Abbey have shown up to this point, there is not going to be a faster LW2x coming from the US. Since that is the only olympic boat, there is no need to temper a larger squad for the Olympics. Ursula and Carlos have made it clear that the goal is to win an Olympic gold medal. There is no way this will upset the chances of gold in London. Also, Ursula has shown a level of skill, fitness, and competition that is unbelievable with how long she has been rowing. To the person who says it is a silly and arrogant idea: True, she has little international experience. The results she does have, however, are staggering. Not to mention she is the fastest LW ever on the C2, while publicly stating that she never trains on the C2. The main question is whether she can do well racing in three events, and there is nothing to indicate that she cant. I am sure Carlos can tailor a training schedule that makes three racing that many times seem easy in comparison.
My earlier comment was based on bringing more qualified rowers to Worlds so that there will ample competition for seats in the LW2X for 2012, not merely boosting "participation." Especially in small and sculling boats, USRowing needs a good pool of female athletes tested by international experience to draw from for the future.
1. This could upset her chances at gold in London if the US LWT2x fails to qualify for London because she is racing in all of these events... 2. All due respect to what she has accomplished in her very short career, but using the C2 as any sort of basis of her ability is seriously flawed - there are cases every year of people who have gone extremely fast on the erg and yet have not done anything even reomtely close to sucessfully tripling up at the World let alone of being successful in one event (I will leave out specific names- no reason to drag anyone down...) 3. Finally, there have been many more accomplished US LWT Women (speed wise) than Ursula, that have not done this...and...we haven't had a LWt women's double in the finals of the worlds in 5 years, or the past two Olympic games (we used to be at the top in all of the LWT Women's events...now we are lucky to make a final in any of them). So I am sorry to say, being the best right now in US LWT rowing does not really assure her of any success internationally. And, using a couple of successful World Cup results does not also make her unbeatable. As anyone who has raced at the World Cup and the Worlds or Olympic games knows...it is much much harder at the Worlds/Olympics than at World Cups. Everyone is peaking and focusing on the Worlds/Olympics...most people (especially most Europeans) are using the World Cup races for preparation/tune up. So the results do not always demonstrate the speed at which people will be later on at Worlds/Olympics.
She seriously needs to focus on going fast in one event. Show her domination and ability to race internationally in one event and then if she is as good as everyone thinks...then all the power to her.
The goal needs to be to win the Worlds...not participate in a bunch of events...this isn't US Nationals people. It is teh World Championships. If she goes and races in three events and does not at least make the finals in them...she, and all of USRowing are going to look foolish.
Two things are EXTREMELY concerning here. This is absolutely NOT a decision that can be made following trials. It is imperative for the decision to be made prior to the close of trials for we all know (or you do now) that despite being the runner-up at trials Tim Larsen was not granted the opportunity to race at the 2006 World Championships, because the USRowing trials rule is that only the winner will be given the berth & trials winner Mike Altman declined. Likewise, as AMAZING as the feat would be if indeed it could be accomplished the current World Championship schedule presents a significant challenge as FISA rules differ than USRowing Rules in the sense that an athlete must weigh-in for the 1st race of EVERY event that they are competing in that day which means if Ursula wins all 3 trials, it would entail her to weigh-in immediately after crossing the finish line of the Olympic event A-final to compete in another event. IS there ANY possible way for that not to compromise the ltwt2x performance?
That has no bearing on the comment made above as there WILL be a ltwt2x final & ltwt1x semi less than 2hrs apart with weigh-ins for both events required.
Although it sounds like an interesting idea, you really need to consider alot more than just if she will be able to physically handle all of the racing in three events during the World Championships (which I think will be a challenge, especially for a lightweight - having to weigh in every day, as well as racing, etc...)
In my eyes, the biggest problem is the logistics of juggling practices leading up to the World Championships for three different events. Basically you will be saying that she will be able to compete successfully at the international level in all three of these events with 1/3 the practice time in each of the crews.
Think about it, when she is practing in the 1x, what happens to the other people in the 2x and 4x, and when she is in the 2x, she is sacrificing time in the 1x, and again the 4x is not practicing in their lineup, etc... Meanwhile other countries will be spending 100% of thier time focusing on the 1x, 2x and 4x....
No offense, but I think it is a pretty silly and slightly arrogant idea. She may be good, but she has very little proven international experience. Why not try and win a few world championships or Olympic medals before doing something no one has ever done before.
While it would be exciting to see Ursula go to Worlds in all three, it would probably be in the best interest of US women's rowing if more athletes went to NZ to temper their skills at the highest international level before 2012. At this level, the mental and physical grind and focus that each event demands are more than most rowers ever experience. It is unlikely that Ursula would be able to give her best possible performance in each event.
Don't listen to any of us. You have to make your own decision. It would be awesome for USA rowing if you could pull it off. You are the embodiment of the Olympic spirit. It would be wonderful if your spirit could go viral and infect the whole of US Rowing. Carlos and Ursula...you rock!
The sensible choice surely depends on how things go at Trials this coming week, how Ursula feels about the options, Carlos' best judgment, etc, etc. But keep firmly in mind that the best aspect of sports at this level is the ability to inspire -- younger athletes, spectators, kids, everyone. Tripling up (successfully) would be awesome!
Actually you are incorrect based on the fact that the QUESTION of the day is to triple or not so in this case while several options have been provided to choose from their sum is actually the answer to the question.
Fun facts on Michael Phelps: - --40 International Championship medals BEFORE the 08 Oly's --- was 1/17 male athletes on the USA squad for 22 events --- raced in 8/40 spots - --9 men swam multiple events with 4 more racing >2 --- consumes approx 12k cal/day with NO wt restrictions --- raced grand total of 5 minutes 50.32 seconds between ALL heats semi's & finals in the 08 Oly's (the MOST time he ever spent in a pool at one event)--- hmmmm???? 8 slots/40 total mens Olympic swimming VS 3 seats/7 total wlwt World rowing--- 8 events/22 events total swim VS 3 events/3 total rowing *note multiple USA entries allowed in ALL of individal SWIMMING events------ And as for that whole "dream" thing... they are the sole driving force behind every aspiring athlete BUT....doesn't EVERY athlete have one??? Could it be possible that there are athletes who MAYBE just MAYBE do NOT aspire to be an Olympian or even win multiple World Championship medals and more than ANYTHING in the WORLD would simply be happy with just one "measly" World Championship medal??? Is his or her dream ANY less special??? ---Different strokes for different folks. Hahaha how "rowing" appropriate?!?! --- I'm certainly not trying to finger point at you, but rather make a generalized statement that I feel that there are QUITE a few narrow-minded posts here. There's nothing wrong with the beauty & spirit of the dream but an open mind & sensitivity to the dreams of others would I'm SURE sincerely be appreciated by the rest of the athletes.
Giving up the chance is giving up the opertunity. If she qualifies for 3, she should go for 3, you just never know what might come of it. Not taking that chance would be a waste of clear talent.
I am thinking she did do multiple events at a NSR or another big event... if she did how did that go? Everyone handles multiple races differently. If she has not done well will multiple events before or attempted it before than worlds is probably not the place to try it out. If she has proven to be able to race that much in a given time period and win than she should go for it! Lightweight rowing could really use the boost as college programs are being cut. Just remember that there are other lightweight women who want to win and if racing that much might slow a boat down than that must be considered.... In short if she has won major events by tripling up more the power to her! If not then maybe going for the big three would be best another year.
Next yr Ursula and Abby will have to concentrate on their Olympic boat but it's 2010, this is your chance ... why not dream BIG, go for broke, shoot for something that's never been done before! Carlos is a smart coach. He won't jeopardize Ursula's performance if conditions aren't right at Karapiro. No risk, no reward. GO FOR IT!!!
Has Ursula won a medal at the World Championships yet? If she has, why not try it in a couple different classes. If she has never medaled, it would be wiser to focus on the race in which she has the most chances. Next year if she is interested in competing at the Olympics all the focus should be on the lightweight double scull.
We are really excited about the what people has to say! We want to know what everybody wants and decide. We are all USA. We have all something to say!Thank you for your interest.
This is such a great way to respect those you are racing this week Carlos, even if it is just an assumption. Just keep painting that target bigger and bigger on your backs.
If you do not do the three events than everything you have blogged about in the last 2 months would be a sham. Would you rename the 3medalchallenge blog?
09/29/2010 9:38:25 PM
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I'm surprised at Row2k (shame on you guys) for disrespecting the Trials athletes, and I am *embarrassed* that anyone who claims to be a Husky would behave this way. This is just not how it's done at Washington, no matter how fast you are.
10/04/2010 5:55:12 PM
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I'm sorry you see it this way. I don't think is disrespectful to ask and talk. Polls are there to make people talk and give an opinion. Row2k is helping us. Disrespectful is not fairplay and not doing your best when you go down the course. The girls will race and do their best. I'm sorry you feel this way. Huskies or americans citizens we are all working to improve rowing and not seating around complaining all the time. Let'a have the course talk Megan. Good luck to you in New Zealand.
Regards, Carlos Dinares
09/27/2010 5:12:38 PM
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09/27/2010 3:41:10 PM
Go Ursula!!
09/27/2010 5:51:59 PM
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09/27/2010 1:44:52 PM
The other aspect is that it's always best to train with a positive, motivated group. By racing the quad, you give a reward to the scullers who are there in the group, and a larger training/racing pool. I believe the tripling will hurt performance this year in the 2x, but there is still ample opportunity for 2X next two years.
How many times have we seen US crews gold medal in the worlds and fall back at Olys? Olys is the money.
If 2X medals, quad medals, and Ursula makes 1X final, that would be a wonderful result.
anything better is gravy.
Make sure she gets a good month away from rowing post NZ.
I think the poll idea is strange, but the Sammamish camp has to raise money. THAT I understand.
Good luck to you, I admire your effort and discipline Sul
09/27/2010 1:01:54 PM
09/27/2010 1:42:33 PM
Any coach would have thought of the schedule then the well being (health) of his athletes first.
He needs guidance. It is too bad he asked for it here for all his peers to see. Ursula and the rest of those young girls need better guidance before someone gets hurt.
09/27/2010 2:19:35 PM
09/27/2010 2:36:00 PM
One medal in the double and one in the quad would be enough.
09/27/2010 3:51:22 PM
09/27/2010 12:34:55 PM
09/27/2010 11:13:32 AM
I do wonder if all of the Carlos crew want to be at trials and just maybe wish that they were just focused on one event and ready to fight the best LW2X in the world at a time when ALL the opposition are peaking and at the top of their game?
The big problem here is that including the coach they are Olympic Class World Champ novices. US Rowing really needs to influence this situation.
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She seriously needs to focus on going fast in one event. Show her domination and ability to race internationally in one event and then if she is as good as everyone thinks...then all the power to her.
The goal needs to be to win the Worlds...not participate in a bunch of events...this isn't US Nationals people. It is teh World Championships. If she goes and races in three events and does not at least make the finals in them...she, and all of USRowing are going to look foolish.
09/27/2010 7:53:50 AM
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In my eyes, the biggest problem is the logistics of juggling practices leading up to the World Championships for three different events. Basically you will be saying that she will be able to compete successfully at the international level in all three of these events with 1/3 the practice time in each of the crews.
Think about it, when she is practing in the 1x, what happens to the other people in the 2x and 4x, and when she is in the 2x, she is sacrificing time in the 1x, and again the 4x is not practicing in their lineup, etc... Meanwhile other countries will be spending 100% of thier time focusing on the 1x, 2x and 4x....
No offense, but I think it is a pretty silly and slightly arrogant idea. She may be good, but she has very little proven international experience. Why not try and win a few world championships or Olympic medals before doing something no one has ever done before.
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09/27/2010 3:14:41 AM
If you do not do the three events than everything you have blogged about in the last 2 months would be a sham. Would you rename the 3medalchallenge blog?